lesbians, where are the lesbians?

There was this brouhaha around gay characters in YA.

Do you know what my first reaction to it was? “Where are the lesbians.” And not the “we have a couple of supporting lesbian characters who don’t even get an on-page kiss until we realized we should act like we are super-good allies; time to tick checkboxes, friend!” crap.

I’ve made comments in the past that suggested I thought there was an equivalency between the exploitation of female homosexuality in porn for men and fetishisation of male homosexuality in slash fanfic and M/M erotica. I didn’t actually think there was an exact equivalency, but in retrospect I realize more and more that it was a fucking stupid thing to even imply. There is, obviously, no equivalency and it’s not remotely the same–there’s the factor of misogyny and a hundred different things that sensible people realize contribute to the harmfulness of exploitative by-men-for-men lesbian porn* in a way that isn’t at all like what slash fanfic and M/M, however vacuous and badly written, do.

*This isn’t saying that no woman anywhere enjoys such porn, nor that they should be judged for enjoying it (and certainly if they do, it’s not wrought with the same problems as male enjoyment: I’m not getting into the idea of women objectifying women, which gets thrown around now and again, because that is not the point). I’m condemning men. The ones responsible for the mainstay of supply and demand. 

Lesbian visibility is pretty bloody terrible in the fiction I enjoy, or even fiction I don’t. So the schtick of those graduated-from-HP-fanfic YA writers, who are ever so lauded for their beautiful wonderful inclusivity? It’s nine times out of ten about hot, hot gay boys. Hot, hot gay boy angst. You’d be lucky if one of the girls in the background… somewhere… likes other girls… somewhere… honest.

The only lesbian YA I can think of is Malinda Lo, whom I’ve never seen recommended and squee’d and fannishly defended the way Sarah Rees Brennan or whoever wrote Havemercy is. The titles that apparently feature major lesbian characters named here? I’ve never heard of most of them. This isn’t an indictment on their quality–The Dark Wife is self-published but, again, we are talking YA so it’s not likely to be any worse than the pro stuff. So it’s telling that I know of Brennan and Cassandra “Plagiaristic Hack” Clare and Havemercy in spite of that, simply by seeing them talked about, tweeted about, and whatnot a terrible lot and celebrated for their wonderful inclusivity of male homosexuality: to the point that someone who doesn’t read YA, and disdains it, has heard about them in those terms and contexts.

Lo isn’t a HP-fanficcer-cum-YA which means her audience is less likely to behave like fandom zerglings defending the overmind, but for fuck’s sake: Malinda Lo is queer and Asian, her characters are queer and some of them are queer and explicitly Asian and why does her share of recognition seem so little? Why isn’t she talked about as much as Brennan and, my god, Clare? I don’t think Lo’s writing is the best, but then it’s YA fiction: who gives a toss about quality? Well-written prose, complexity and great characterization are certainly not requirements for YA fiction to develop a fanatical following. If I couldn’t finish Huntress then at least Ash is readable, no more or less than anything else in that genre. I have this awful, nagging feeling that I’ve seen Silver Phoenix recommended more than Huntress, not least because Silver Phoenix’s cultural markers are much more obvious–to a white audience particularly (and with that hideous original cover too)–and, yes, because the central romance is straight: a girl getting together with a boy, even or especially an emotionally abusive boy, will set most people on fire the way a girl getting together with a girl (in a healthy, functional relationship no less) simply won’t.

At the time of this writing, a quick glance at fanfiction.net tells me there are 4,669 Mortal Instruments (the Clare shit) and 31 Demon’s Lexicon (the Brennan shit) fanfic. No section exists for either of Malinda Lo’s works. This doesn’t provide hard, empirical data by any means, but it’s a workable mindshare metric. I’d do a twitter search to compare terms, but “ash” isn’t a very good keyword and “huntress” turns up tons of unrelated detritus.

I could seek pretty great depictions of lesbians or bisexual women who do get with other women in non-YA SF/F, yes. Read a Caitlin Kiernan book and you’ll find yourself up to the elbow with queer girls and queer women, thank god, so much so that it comes across as normative. Valente’s Palimpsest though not my favorite features important, central romantic and sexual relationships between women. Tanith Lee’s Disturbed By Her Song is amazing. There’s Joanna Russ and Ursula le Guin and and. Put together I still seem to find fewer queer women–who are in relationships with other women, as opposed to bisexual Avice from Mieville’s Embassytown who only mentions in passing that she was married to a woman once, an event extrinsic to the text–than queer men. In contrast I can name Swordpoint, Nightrunners series, The Steel Remains, The Doctrine of Labyrinths series, Kingdom of Gods, Ink and Steel/Hell and Earth, A Companion to Wolves and (arguably, but many fans read it as slash anyway) Robin Hobb’s Farseer trilogy as books with primary gay male characters, even protagonists. Joan D. Vinge’s The Summer Queen has tons of bisexual men but, IIRC (though it’s been a while), all the women are straight. That’s just off the top of my head, many of them multi-books no less. I’m also really done with “there’s a tertiary female character who likes girls, right here, in this book primarily about straight people or queer boys going at it like bunnies” (so the off-screen lesbian in Kingdom of Gods who winds up dead is, uhhhh, nothx). Yaoi manga gets so much more attention (and exists in greater quantities) than yuri that I’ve learned to tune yaoi the fuck out–it’s so much white noise.

Not, admittedly, that I want to see lesbian representation like queer male “representation” in say A Companion to Wolves or Doctrine of the Labyrinths either, because both are incredibly rapey. But we are talking head-count basis and popularity. There, too, is a prevailing impression that lesbian romance/erotica doesn’t sell as well as M/M (if it sells at all). Submission calls? Mostly M/M. Carina Press has a section for M/M, but none for F/F. This small press publishes M/M exclusively. I pulled them out of a hat by the way, not by googling “woman-hating presses that shrink in terror from girl cooties.”

And, you know, queer women get treated even worse than queer men in fiction written by men. Like the Joe Abercrombie thing with the marital rape and Archeth from The Steel Remains who for some reason never gets to have sex: not because she’s asexual, she just… doesn’t get any even though she has sexual desire and very much wants to do that slave girl (refraining due to ethical concerns but, again, how hard would it have been to write her in a healthy, functional relationship with another woman? Oh, right: Richard Morgan lol). In contrast the straight barbarian and the gay protagonist fuck vigorously–not each other mind you–about twice every chapter. Some of Michael Moorcock’s male characters have been bi, and some of those have been spared the rape stick, whereas in its original incarnation Gloriana‘s eponymous pansexual queen gets raped by a man and ends up marrying him, as the rape “liberates” her from being the symbol of Albion and gives her the first orgasm ever of her life to boot. Hooray! I mean, sure women are treated shittier period, within fiction or without, but damn. Et tu, Moorcock?

I recognize that representation of homosexuality at all is important, but when yet another discussion about it comes up and it’s about the boys again all I feel is invisible and sad. It’s not a zero-sum game! More queer female visibility isn’t going to take away from or diminish the visibility of male homosexuality: at this point it pretty much can’t. Wouldn’t it be nice if there were more stuff for both? The prominence of slash doesn’t mean representations of female homosexual desire have to be so buried. Throw me a fucking bone.* That’s not too much to ask, is it?

*I’m saying “throw me a fucking bone” rather than “throw us a fucking bone” because I don’t want to speak for any woman but myself, since not a monolith, &c, &c.

Screw this, I’ll go read Christine Love.

66 comments to lesbians, where are the lesbians?

  1. Nicola Griffith’s Slow River, and Ammonite also.

  2. I don’t have any empirical evidence, but as far as Carina and other romance publications go, m/m is essentially a form of pornography and nothing more than that. The audience is mostly straight women, and the media is mostly produced by straight women. They’re not even attempting to market to lesbians. (I’m not sure they’re even marketing to gay men. If they were, why call it m/m and not gay fiction?)

    I’ve sometimes wondered if YA is a diluted super soft core form of this. That is, that publishers assume that the majority of their readers are female and heerosexual and would prefer to read about male characters for pornographic reasons. (If I wanted to be mean, I’d say that the concept of homosexual representation is just an afterthought that got tagged on. If they were thinking about it from the beginning, we would have more lesbian characters in YA fiction. We’d have more sexual minorities in general. Or at least gay male characters that make sense. The fact that male homosexuality is so prominent, and that it’s mainly found in pornography, suggests to me that representation is not the publishers’ primary concern.)

    It also tends to be that more serious and well-written works don’t get the rabid fanbases that midbrow entertainment does. The one lesbian manga I own is a title called “Blue.” The story takes a quiet, mature look at adolescence and the relationships formed during that time. In comparison, the BL manga I’ve been conned into buying have all be trash. And I do mean all.

    M/M, slash, yaoi and I aren’t exactly on good terms these days. I’ve refrained from having an opinion on it for a long time, but it’s some of the anti-woman sentiments using a gay male character as a mouthpiece that bothers me the most. Unless the writer is a gay man writing honestly about personal prejudices or something, I kind of don’t want to hear it.

    (As a side note, I haven’t read “A Companion to Wolves,” but the summary scares me. I think the authors stated in an interview that the protag is not gay. Which makes it sound like a story with gay activity minus the gay identity.)

    I know that in media overall, gay white men have the most visibility than other sexual minorities. That could make male homosexuality either the most accepted part of the LGBT spectrum, or it could be an indicator that it’s the part that people have the most problems with. I’m not sure which one it is. In my part of the U.S., female bisexuality is the one least likely to get a negative reaction. (Probably for all the wrong reasons though.)

    • acrackedmoon says:

      At first I thought it’s the same thing as Blue Drop, another fantastically mature (although with elements of SF/F) yuri manga. But Blue looks and sounds incredibly lovely. I must have it. Selection bias may be in full effect here, but the yuri I have sampled is generally leagues ahead of the yaoi–it doesn’t read like it’s written for the male gaze or exploitation, it tends to be more emotionally mature, and there’s a great deal less reliance on shitty tropes (some of the sillier ones are a little too grope-heavy and ridiculous, but hey). Many of them are written by women, too.

      Oh I’m under no illusion that publishers are interested in representation: if there’s a market that pays well they’ll cater to it, and they’d have done the same even if that market had been one of babyfur otherkin with a passion for golden shower.

      (As a side note, I haven’t read “A Companion to Wolves,” but the summary scares me. I think the authors stated in an interview that the protag is not gay. Which makes it sound like a story with gay activity minus the gay identity.)

      Wait what? So he’s… a straight man who’s gang-raped repeatedly by other men?

      I’ve refrained from having an opinion on it for a long time, but it’s some of the anti-woman sentiments using a gay male character as a mouthpiece that bothers me the most.

      I’ve certain opinions about it, and I seem to keep running into the “it is a pro-feminist activity/genre that affirms the exploration of sexuality for women of all orientations!” buuut there’s still the misogyny that crops up in it a lot. this discussion is filled with DO NOT WANT, and I’m not sure what the fuck is going on with here. Yes, women are victimized by misogyny/patriarchy in myriad ways, but… I’m not sure how to deal with that kind of internalized misogyny.

      I know that in media overall, gay white men have the most visibility than other sexual minorities. That could make male homosexuality either the most accepted part of the LGBT spectrum, or it could be an indicator that it’s the part that people have the most problems with. I’m not sure which one it is. In my part of the U.S., female bisexuality is the one least likely to get a negative reaction. (Probably for all the wrong reasons though.)

      On one hand it does elicit a strong negative reaction, but on the other it’s not as though queer women (who date/have sex with other women) don’t get the short end of the stick either. I hesitate to go all Oppression Olympics over this, but even where I am male homosexuality just has so much more visibility it’s not even funny. And, well, in general male sexuality (of any sort) tends to be prioritized over female sexuality, so…

      • seanwillsalt says:

        I think there’s two distinct things going on here: on one hand, male homosexuality is the ‘face’ of homosexuality in general, for better and for worse. That means that when people think of gay stereotypes, it’s usually gay men…but then positive portrayals of homosexuality almost always involve men as well.

        What I wonder is whether both phenomenon are due to the prioritising of male sexuality over female, or whether it’s just the positive portrayals part that comes from that. (My gut instinct is that they both do, but obviously I don’t have much to back that up.)

        Anyway, yes, the lack of lesbian characters in YA is depressing. I’ve seen many, MANY female YA authors pride themselves on the fact that they write gay characters…almost all of whom are male :/

  3. leavethesky says:

    Malinda Lo ran the numbers in YA (http://www.malindalo.com/2011/09/i-have-numbers-stats-on-lgbt-young-adult-books-published-in-the-u-s/) and it’s even more depressing: Of the less than 1% of YA titles that are actually LGBT, “50% of LGBT YA books are about boys, with only 25% about girls.” Yeah. This. In YA. Which is read predominantly by girls. Why am I not surprised?
    There are so few queer women in SF/F it’s infuriating. Apparently in worlds w/elves, werewolves, starships, and/or fucking magic, lesbians who actually have sex lives and don’t get raped are just too fucking out there to be believable?
    Also Santa Olivia is lesbian AND a POC. Plus *spoiler* she isn’t raped and she gets the girl.

    • acrackedmoon says:

      Ohhhh, hard numbers. That is so depressing. :( I wonder what the figure’d look like for non-YA SF/F? It’s probably bolstered somewhat by feminist utopias, and possibly the balance wouldn’t be that skewed, but I dunno. I do think the idea that YA is magically more inclusive than SF/F in general, or more inclusive than anything else, is pretty fucking bunk.

      Also Santa Olivia is lesbian AND a POC. Plus *spoiler* she isn’t raped and she gets the girl.

      That’s neat. I wasn’t particularly interested in it because it’s written by Carey (nothing against her: I just haven’t liked the Kushiel’s stuff much–and speaking of that, the one Kushiel book I did read, the very first one, didn’t seem to feature any queer woman except… the sadistic villain), but I understand it’s in a much different style from the Kushiel thing. Will read. Will very read.

      • leavethesky says:

        I wasn’t particularly interested in it because it’s written by Carey (nothing against her: I just haven’t liked the Kushiel’s stuff much–and speaking of that, the one Kushiel book I did read, the very first one, didn’t seem to feature any queer woman except… the sadistic villain), but I understand it’s in a much different style from the Kushiel thing. Will read. Will very read.

        This. I wasn’t going to read it because I’m not a fan of Carey’s Kushiel books AT ALL. Maybe she wrote Santa Olivia to redeem herself? Whatever. It’s not terribly well written (see all of your comments on the general suckage of YA ‘style’), but it’s definitely fun.

  4. Also, maybe everybody was saving their ideas for the anthology Steam-Powered: Lesbian Steampunk Stories which came out early this year:

    http://www.torquerebooks.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=3034

  5. saajanpatel says:

    What Caitlin B. Kiernan do you recommend? I was reading her introduction for her new shorts collection and am sorely tempted though I’ve spent a lot on books recently and what to finish some that I have…

    But damn if her intro wasn’t full of win.

  6. bloodychambers says:

    When one of your posts is tagged with “shoo straight folks” I know it’s going to be good.

    But seriously, thank you for writing about this. At the risk of getting too personal, I have problems with anxiety etc. and I’m pretty certain that my sexuality is a factor. I am just so sick of hearing “all you need is some cock!!!!!!11!” and similar bullshit that’s so ingrained in society. Wow, thanks for filling me with shame and self-hatred! Plus I’m a college student, so the casual misogyny I experience on a daily basis is unbelievable (feminazi, really? REALLY???).

    Isn’t Kiernan brilliant? When she ventures into YA she’s going to write about queer teenagers, according to her blog (can’t recall the exact post offhand). Meanwhile I’m waiting patiently for “The Drowning Girl”.

    • acrackedmoon says:

      Aww, thank you. And you are welcome, as well, but mostly thank you.

      I am just so sick of hearing “all you need is some cock!!!!!!11!” and similar bullshit that’s so ingrained in society.

      And–again at the risk of having OPPRESSION OLYMPICS yelled at me–I don’t think gay men are subjected to so much “all you need is some vagina!!!” because homophobia against queer women is rooted in misogyny on top of the homophobia, which brings an extra ick factor (also reflected in misogynistic slurs being slung at gay men: the worst of all insults for a man is to be compared to a woman, after all!). And there isn’t any systematic “ohhh can I watch you make out with another guy?”

      Kiernan’s language is very interesting. I’m on Silk right now, though The Red Tree didn’t much work for me.

      • bloodychambers says:

        The Red Tree is very different from her previous works, so maybe you’ll like Silk better. Future Kiernan blog post, perhaps? Unless you have a bunch of other stuff planned, in which case ignore my fangirl demands. Her short fiction is also excellent. She and Valente are some of the few writers I go out of my way to support.

        And for what it’s worth, I agree with you on the whole “lesbians just need a man whereas gay men aren’t bombarded with vagina” thing (a note to potential readers: please don’t yell at me for saying that; I know these issues are a lot more complex, but I’ve had a long day and can’t seem to do eloquence right now).

        So, um, thanks again for being so intelligent and articulate. *goes back to lurking*

        • saajanpatel says:

          I see myself getting the Kiernan shorts book after all this praise.

          Maybe having enough gay people in my life at an early age stopped me from having this bias but as a straight dude I am always surprised by the insecurity straight men have around lesbians, how the very idea just makes their testicles retreat or something.

          I mean, I know I have other biases I’m trying to correct, but this one escapes me.

  7. Well, I’ve got two strongly implied lesbian relationships in the sequel to Fairyland. (they don’t say WE ARE LESBIANS but there’s two women who say they love each other and live together. They are scientists in the field of Queer Physicks.) Seems I should get more upfront in the third book though. As a queer woman, I doubt I’m even capable of writing something that doesn’t have lesbian subtext and often straight up text (The Orphan’s Tales has lesbian characters, btw–Tomomo, who twigs nearly everyone I’ve talked to as gay and is meant to, and her Arimaspian friend kiss, etc) but I am still finding my way in middle grade fiction. Fairyland has so much more subversive content than I think I would have ever gotten away with had I not posted it online and thus not gone through traditional editing. But I like to play with sexuality under the surface in my younger reader books, everything metaphorized.

    But maybe that’s just not quite brave enough.

    Still, I totally agree with you and hate how queer female relationships just aren’t considered as important or interesting either in uplevel culture or SFF. (Where to me they are super interesting! I’m constantly working out my own issues with my queerness and relationships with women in my adult books.) Dan Savage shits all over bisexuals and looks down on lesbians on the regular and he’s our Big Queer Voice. I don’t even know. Though I will say my lesbian ghostsex Hansel and Gretel retelling is one of my most frequently reprinted short stories. I think there’s rather a lot of lesbian literary SFF short stories, but fewer novels? That’s my impression, which is not scientific.

    I think it’s just misogyny coming up again and again though. Women’s stories just aren’t as interesting, so TWO women is DOUBLEPLUS BORING. Men and their struggles and passions are, so TWO men is CRAZY AWESOME. Also women don’t like to have sex, everyone knows that, so lesbians don’t have it ever (thank you again, Dan Savage). So why would you write about their UHauls and cats amirite? And if we can talk WAY MORE about the only group of white men who aren’t privileged in every capacity, that’s TOTES more important and pressing than any other group.

    Let’s face it. Most mainstream SFF writers are hard pressed to have a female protagonist at all, let alone one who doesn’t exist to love/serve/protect/die for a man.

    • acrackedmoon says:

      Oh my god, Dan Savage. Do not want. Do not want forever. Augh why. My hate for him is like a pair of lungs made of solidified hate.

      (I did notice the queer women in Orphan’s Tales! I loved them. Yess fox lady. <3 I haven't yet read "A Delicate Architecture." I'm, erm, not good with buying anthologies. Ventriloquism doesn’t seem available in a form that I can purchase without paying huge shipping fees. D:)

      I think there’s rather a lot of lesbian literary SFF short stories, but fewer novels? That’s my impression, which is not scientific.

      That seems to be the case to me, as well.

      I think it’s just misogyny coming up again and again though. Women’s stories just aren’t as interesting, so TWO women is DOUBLEPLUS BORING. Men and their struggles and passions are, so TWO men is CRAZY AWESOME. Also women don’t like to have sex, everyone knows that, so lesbians don’t have it ever (thank you again, Dan Savage). So why would you write about their UHauls and cats amirite?

      I wonder sometimes if some of the genre’s recent popular works would have gotten the attention and acclaim they have if the protagonists had been female. Talking about Scott Lynch and Patrick Rothfuss here (both being pretty terrible, come to think, about women: so much so that in The Lies of Locke Lamora the woman-fridging is almost literal–hello dear, your fridge? A barrel of horse piss!). Then I try to think of recent popular SF/F works that feature queer female relationships and apart from yours and Kiernan’s I’ve got nothing. This may simply present a deficiency in my reading range, though.

      It’s telling to me, as well, that many female characters in M/M or slashy fiction go around raping gay men (that’s if they aren’t married to one, in which case they are nagging harpy wives getting in the way of hot, true manlove, which is purer and truer and better than any other love).

      And if we can talk WAY MORE about the only group of white men who aren’t privileged in every capacity, that’s TOTES more important and pressing than any other group.

      I never thought of it like that but now that you mention it. It weirds me the fuck out that even on Reddit, otherwise a hub of hugely oblivious white straight dudes, there’s a lot less homophobia directed at gay men but misogyny in all its forms is the soup of the day, every day (and should a female redditor so much as imply she’s in a relationship with another woman, out come the neckbeardy “ohhh hot” replies).

      • nextfriday says:

        The roles of women in fiction seem to be very limited in general. The only two story that seem to be allowed are: 1) Getting a dude 2) Raising children. Once a woman gets a child, her whole existence is revolving around the child. If for some reason the father is missing from the picture, he still there as a ghost, (because obviously if you don’t have a dad, you’re going to grow up omg damaged). If he is there, then he’s the best dad ever. In either cases women and children are made into some kind of a reward for the protagonist, he is either getting them for good behavior, or they are taken from him, so that he can turn into a proper revenge machine. (Those tropes are so ridiculously widespread that tons of guys sincerely believe that this is how the world operates.)

        Naturally, when the guy is removed completely, what tropes are left? Oops. Where’s my ground?

  8. toritruslow says:

    First up, you’ve cured me of my vague intention to go back and finish Gloriana now (I got bored, but you know, it’s one of those Important Fantasy Books). I mean. Augh.

    And this is a good post. You’ve got me thinking – hiding in the library reading YA in my lunchtimes pretty much got me through school, but I was still miserable, dealing with external and internalised homophobia. Ash and Huntress didn’t exist then, and I think they’d have helped, and I hope they help some now, but two popular-ish books is not enough. And if this was discussed at length in the #YesGayYA thing I didn’t see it. It kills me to think there are still kids feeling as wretched as I did or worse.

    This shit perpetuates itself. I’m not going to blame all my failings on the books I read growing up, but I find myself writing a novel in which the two main characters are gay men and the lesbians are there but not given so much attention. I’m trying to fix this, because it’s my responsibility obvs, but I do see how easy this was to have done without quite realising, given what I’ve been reading and internalising most of my life. My genderqueerness may be a factor here but I don’t think it’s an excuse. Self, I am disappoint.

    • acrackedmoon says:

      The revised edition (which is the one I read) doesn’t have the “she’s raped and marries him because he’s liberated her from being a symbol”–I think Gloriana yells “you will rape me? I am the fucking queen!” and, knife in hand, threatens to castrate the guy. Or something like that. This moment also goes toward showing that she’s recovered from being raped as a girl by her father (yeaaah). So, it’s still iffy as shit, but considerably less than the original.

      And if this was discussed at length in the #YesGayYA thing I didn’t see it.

      I’ll be honest and say I don’t think much of the #yesGayYA because of this very absence (among other things). Maybe it was discussed somewhere, somewhen, by somebody. I’m not a huge YA reader or anything. But at surface it just looked like a lot of “yay! gay boys!”

      I’m trying to fix this, because it’s my responsibility obvs, but I do see how easy this was to have done without quite realising, given what I’ve been reading and internalising most of my life. My genderqueerness may be a factor here but I don’t think it’s an excuse. Self, I am disappoint.

      You and me both! (Barring the genderqueerness obvs.) I started writing gay men waaay before I started writing queer women. For the longest time it didn’t even occur to me.

  9. It’s actually Bones Like Black Sugar. Delicate Architecture is my YA Gretelly thing–cannibalism but no sex. Bones is the one with Gretel and the witch in the ruins of the candy house. ;)

    Our period in which we could not put out our own e-version of Ventriloquism is up at year’s end, at which point I’ll have it happily up on Kindle and everywhere else.

    I do think a lot of the really popular SFF is regressive–a friend of mine who doesn’t read fantasy read Martin and was very upset. She told me “you said anything could happen in fantasy, that you didn’t have to engage the horrible ugly sexism and racism and rape and casual hate of most of everything ever, that there were so many possibilities, and this was nothing but the worst of all the isms rolled up together.”

    It broke my heart. I wrote a whole Yes, Virginia letter to her telling her that anything /can/ happen in fantasy, but you probably shouldn’t expect it to in epic fantasy, which tends to be the most regressive of the subgenres, most especially not of the level of popularity we’re talking about with Martin. Because those neckbeards buy books by the wheelbarrow, and most authors seem to feel safe selling to them–or maybe it’s not even that, but just writing the kind of stories you want to write like we’re all supposed to and the stories they want to write are about people like them–just as the stories I want to write are about people like me. I do try to have interesting and positive straight white male characters, too. I’m just not as interested in them. (See how weird that sounds? But it’s the excuse given for lack of women all the time.)

    As for the Oppression Olympics thing, there’s been a huge media/cultural push in recent years to make sure everyone knows it’s Not Ok to be homophobic and an asshole about it. Conservatives don’t get it but they never will. However, no one gives two shits about the truly gargantuan amounts of bullying little girls have always gotten just for being girls, or any of the other horrors we get to just deal with and get a sense of humor about because saying it’s Not Ok to be a misogynist makes you a feminazi, not a hero making youtube videos. Lesbians aren’t seen in America as the Cool Gays. They don’t have flashy outfits and snazzy reality tv shows about their fabulosity. (Forget bisexual women. We’re just doing it for dudes! Hottt!) They are not nearly as represented in any media–and if they are it’s almost always a stereotype of unattractive, usually overweight, hostile, masculine lesbians. Because that’s HILAROUS!

    Everything is intersectional. It’s still very hard to be gay whatever body that comes in. But part of that intersection is how misogyny weaves in. Men’s stories are always more interesting, even if they’re doing something outside the norm. So people freak out about men having sex to the point of violence, while just out and out saying lesbian sex isn’t “real” sex half the time, (the other half it’s just assumed, it’s not cheating if it’s with a girl, f/f in mainstream porn isn’t for women it’s for men) and yet (often caricatured, it’s not always great but it’s /visible/) gay men’s sexuality is now part of just about every entertainment medium while most content creators keep on ignoring women because it’s whatever, boring girl shit like shoes and shopping. They have The L Word, I guess. Who cares.

    This got long. I’m not sure it’s well thought out, it’s 3 am over here.

    But I got nothing on women raping gay men in fantasy. I think the earlier point about lesbians just needing teh cock while gay men aren’t subjected to same (in fantasy–in real life I think they are rather often shoved toward women by family, etc) is an interesting one.

    Reddit is a shocking place most of the time.

    • acrackedmoon says:

      Ah! I’ve now read it (link to Bones Like Black Sugar for anyone else interested) and it is exquisite. Thank you for writing it. Seriously, thank you.

      Our period in which we could not put out our own e-version of Ventriloquism is up at year’s end, at which point I’ll have it happily up on Kindle and everywhere else.

      Yay! To be honest I’m not a great big fan of Kindle/Amazon as an entity (and I understand you aren’t either), buuut it’s the most international out of all the big ebook stores and has fewer region locks than say B&N, so yeah.

      I do think a lot of the really popular SFF is regressive–a friend of mine who doesn’t read fantasy read Martin and was very upset.

      Ugh, yikes. Martin of all things. Have you read Tiger Beatdown’s take on it?

      I do try to have interesting and positive straight white male characters, too. I’m just not as interested in them. (See how weird that sounds? But it’s the excuse given for lack of women all the time.)

      I know! I first said that kind of thing just for giggles, but I do find that I’m less and less inclined to read something if it’s centered on a white straight dude’s POV because… well, white straight dude characters may be many and varied, but at a basic level there’s a sameness to them and–among some authors, among certain subgenres–the way they interact with the world, and specifically with women.

      People’ve called me a man-hating feminazi lesbian before for this blog, which I find hilarious because they seem to think either “man-hating” or “lesbian” is an awful insult. I embrace both with gusto and enthusiasm! And yes, so much yes to the visibility thing: much of it sucks at portraying male homosexuality but at least it’s something out there, and when the quantity goes up the likelihood of quality content goes up too, as opposed to having very little to start with for female queerness outside of, y’know, porn for men. Which is icky and no thank you, worse than invisibility.

  10. Nonny Morgan says:

    Carina Press, incidentally, does have a classification for f/f. It’s just not on their main page, because (according to their staff) they only currently have two books. The only way to find the classification is to stumble across one of their two books and click the genre link. Which I provide for you here. (I haven’t read Last Car yet, but I rather liked Rulebreaker.)

    I also really enjoyed The Dark Wife by Sarah Diemer. My favorite portrayal of Hades yet, I think. :)

    I have been complaining for years about the lack of good lesbian stories, particularly in romance. I’m part of several romance writing communities, and the refrain that you hear repeatedly is that “They don’t sell”. I have seen many people talked out of writing them because they figure, why waste time on something that is not going to recoup anything? (Which, admittedly, I’m guilty of. I had to finally get to a point where I could say, “I don’t care, I’m writing it anyway.” The fact that self-publishing is now a real option helps there, too.)

    Also, I am just going to point at your and Cat Valente’s comments about women being treated shoddily and assumed to be boring and unimportant and say, “FUCKING THIS.” Gods I am SICK of that shit.

  11. Nonny, thanks for the Carina Press info — a friend has a new book coming in a couple of weeks from them (Stellarnet Rebel, space sf socio political cyberpunk, etc.) and I’ve found a couple of their books to be pretty good (The Lion of Kent, The Debutante’s Dilemma) and both of the titles you listed look interesting, too. Another e-publisher, though smaller, is Astraea Press: http://astraeapress.com/ — like Carina Press, it’s a mix of romance, romance with genre, and sometimes genre with romance. And I note that “Last Car” is available in audiobook, though “Rulebreaker” is not.

    Back on short fiction being where it’s at: in addition to Steam-Powered which came out early this year, the World SF blog just posted about “Heiresses of Russ: the best lesbian speculative fiction of the year” which is coming next year:

    http://worldsf.wordpress.com/2011/12/14/heiresses-of-russ/

    And to be a bit shameless, my zine has published a couple of f/f stories, though not in the erotic/romance sense, more in the “lesbians are just characters, whatever”. Gwen Clare’s “The Other Lila” and Melinda Thielbar’s “You’re Almost Here”. The latter is available in podcast from Escape Pod: http://escapepod.org/2011/03/03/ep282-youre-almost-here/

  12. Nonny Morgan says:

    @Samuel:

    Oooh! I didn’t know there was a new f/f coming out. I will have to keep an eye out for it, because I have really liked a lot of what I’ve read from Carina. And frankly, I’m always looking for good SF/F lesbian romance. My biggest complaint is that the few GBLT small presses that put out lesbian fiction seem to revolve around depressing contemporaries, which is not something I want to read. I really don’t want to read about “our” world, thanks. ;)

    I have the Steampunk lesbian anthology and really love what I’ve read. I particularly liked N.K. Jemisin’s story (I know that Moon isn’t particularly fond of her, but I didn’t find that this story had the same sort of elements as in the Inheritance books). I haven’t finished the antho yet, because I have been savoring it to read a story here and there.

    Thank you for the other recommendations! I particularly appreciate that there is a transcript of the podcast, because I have auditory processing difficulties and podcasts and audiobooks are basically impossible for me to follow without a great deal of difficulty.

  13. Nonny, sorry to possibly disappoint but I lacked clarity of communication: Stellarnet Rebel isn’t f/f as far as I know. I do think it shows that Carina is more and more interested in publishing books which are more firmly on the science fiction side of the “a little bit of sf in my romance” which is typically as far as romance publishers will go. (Which is getting off topic; sorry about that.)

  14. “I’m not sure what the fuck is going on with here.”

    Moon, I have to thank you for bringing that to my attention. I’ve been misreading the whole m/m and yaoi thing. Call it personal bias and ignorance. I did think that they were prioritizing men’s issues, but I also thought that they genuinely wanted to write gay male characters. It looks like I was completely wrong. I think that a significant portion of the slash fandom is reacting to patriarchy, but internalized misogynistic tendencies make it hard or impossible for some of them to write or read female characters. So they write men in a fantasical sort of way in which gender based power imbalances in a sexual relationship (something that I severely underestimated out of personal bias) don’t exist. That’s the fantasy, and it probably feels to those who enjoy the genre like a successful attempt at circumventing patriarchal values. However, I think that the pro-feminist label only works if you break the fourth wall and consider the female writer producing the material. When considering the material itself just on its literary merits, ignoring the writer, it probably doesn’t look at all feminist. It doesn’t include female characters at all, and if challenging patriarchy is the main goal, then it seems like a form of avoidance to write only about men.

    Furthermore, the male characters in yaoi are kind of (more often than not) men by exterior label only. So, you have a medium that is infused with women’s issues but played out by male characters. Then the question is: What or who is it about? It isn’t about women because the key players are men, but it isn’t about men either because the concerns and themes highlighted in the work are not those that generally are of primary concern to men (speaking solely about majorities here, in which “men” and “women” are meant to imply identities rather than strictly biological sex).

    @saajanpatel: “I am always surprised by the insecurity straight men have around lesbians, how the very idea just makes their testicles retreat or something.”

    Well, much of it is a product of hypermasculinity, as far as I can tell. And the rest comes from growing up in a society where almost all the portrayals of women in media are tailored to men’s interests. Women who are only interested in other women sexually is not just a foreign and alien concept; it’s probably too mentally jarring for some people. Some guys use sex as a form of therapy; its a mental crutch just waiting to get kicked out from under them.

    Just looking at Hollywood, much of it is male dominated and owned by men. They can typecast gay men now because they know how to make these cookie cutter roles that can be easily filled by the next willing stereotype. They don’t really have many predesignated roles for lesbian women, and that’s probably because the concept is so removed from their minds that they wouldn’t even know where to begin. From friends with connections to the entertainment industry, they are always running into random (and I do mean RANDOM) acts of sexism and racism.

    • saajanpatel says:

      Good call on making sure the masculine narrative is preserved – gay men and women have to be weak in one way or another.

      I was trying to think of a gay man in visual media that wasn’t flamboyant and thus non-threatening to straight dudes and all I can come up with is Omar from the Wire.

  15. E Farant says:

    Hi! I’m new here, and so far I love your blog and pretty much everything you have to say about SF/F. As a queer woman who also happens to like science fiction and fantasy, it’s good to see that I’m not the only one feeling the no girls allowed vibe prevalent here. It is incredibly frustrating that when I bring up the lack of good female protagonists in SF/F, I’m told that I’m exaggerating, I’m on my period, or I’m referred to Alien (Which I’ve watched, gentlemen. Thanks tho).

    I also happen to be a drama/literature major at my institution of higher learning, and let me tell you the double-standards that are inherent in the drama program are kind of fucking nuts. Let me give you a little taste of my drama program’s demographics. This is DRAM100, a general course that people have to take in order to advance in the program. It is not gender specialized:

    Females: 79
    Males: 17

    You think the syllabus, the reading material, and the productions that are chosen for this course would represent these demographics. Furthermore, in casting choice, it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that some male roles would be crosscast to further reflect the fact that our drama program is full of women.

    Wrong.

    Though the syllabus and reading material is more diverse than it would be if the Administration had its way, the plays we study focus on men’s stories, men’s struggles, and men’s worlds. Some don’t even pass the Bechdel Test, which I count as the low watermark for progress in terms of equal representation. The only queer characters, out of ten plays we study, are two gay men. Oddly enough, gender of the playwrights is pretty evenly distributed, and our (female) prof makes an effort for the theoretical stuff we studied to be penned by women.

    The monopoly men have on theatre productions is ludicrous. There was butthurt two years ago when one of our profs directed a mainstage production of Chekov’s The Seagull, but with an all-female cast. Further butthurt ensued when she did Shakespeare’s King Lear with a woman in the title role and several other significant male characters. This year she chose a play with very feminist overtones and a predominantly female cast, and the butthurt continues from boys who feel that they are not being given fair representation.

    Considering all the other plays put on in this program that have fully male casts and production teams, I find these gentlemen’s attitude frustrating and mean-spirited.

    Sorry, I’ve dumped my frustrations on your very clean blog.

    -E

    • acrackedmoon says:

      Pfft, the entire blog is like my frustration dump, lady. It’s far from clean. <3 Thank you for dropping by, I'm deliriously happy to hear from other queer women. It makes one feel less alone.

      Literature/similar syllabi everywhere are death-choked by dude material. Not for nothing does the "dead white men" cliche exist: in this case, it's oh so depressingly true.

      Further butthurt ensued when she did Shakespeare’s King Lear with a woman in the title role and several other significant male characters. This year she chose a play with very feminist overtones and a predominantly female cast, and the butthurt continues from boys who feel that they are not being given fair representation.

      Someone should ask them what they think the women feel, but nahhh, that requires some level of empathy or perspective which–if you’re complaining about that as a man–they probably don’t have.

      • E Farant says:

        Silly me, I thought things would be less puritanical once I set off for university. :D

        Just want to reiterate that I adore this blog. I have such a hard time finding explicitly queer and female blogs about anything I like, so I plan to read this one religiously. I would never have found out about Nalo Hopkinson’s stuff without it. I likely would have read Wind-Up Girl instead, given the Hugo and Nebula it has. Thanks for helping me to avoid that unpleasant experience.

        • acrackedmoon says:

          You’re welcome! FWIW you can’t usually go wrong reading Catherynne Valente and there’re quite a few queer female characters in some of Tanith Lee’s works–apart from Disturbed By Her Song there’s also The Secret Book of Paradys, though I’d say the former is better with representation than the latter.

          Christine Love is a queer game developer, and she’s put out a visual novel called “don’t take it personally, babe, it just ain’t your story” which is chock-full of queer teenagers; the game’s healthiest and most positive relationship is between lesbian girls.

  16. [...] Here’s a post from a blog intriguingly titled Requires Only That You Hate on lesbians, where are the lesbians. Lesbian visibility is pretty bloody terrible in the fiction I enjoy, or even fiction I don’t. So [...]

  17. I wrote Carina Press; perhaps if others do the same they’ll see that: 1. It was an error not to list this category in the sidebar, even if there’s only 2 titles so far and 2. They should solicit and sign and publish more of these titles.

  18. rizzrustbolt says:

    Publishers don’t want lesbian genre fiction because they say there’s no market for it. Not realizing of course, that if they published lesbian genre fiction, there would be a market for it. And one of the most loyal markets they could ever hope for.

  19. Came over from Read React Review. You’re singing my song! As a reader of lesbian and f/f romance, I’ve often felt invisible. M/m is super hot and popular, but it’s so hard to find good f/f stories. Sometimes I wonder why I bother looking. I also review, which is another frustration. Most of my reviews aren’t positive because the quality is low & selection is sparse.

    A couple of recs. These are both contemporary YA.

    Sister Mischief by Laura Goode is awesome. My favorite lesbian protagonist and one of my top reads of 2011.

    Boyfriends with Girlfriends by Alex Sanchez has two love stories, one girl-girl, one boy-boy, both nicely done.

    As far as Carina Press, I requested Last Call at NetGalley but was denied. Then I realized it wasn’t really a romance and moved on. I did read and review Rulebreaker, which had strong writing but not a strong romance IMO.

    Anyway, I like your post. You’re not alone in wanting more choices and better representations.

    • acrackedmoon says:

      I went to read the comments at Read React Review and, uh, wow, that’s a lot of “ewww women cooties” comments and homophobia in there. Very gross and reminds me why I hold the majority of romance readers under deep, withering contempt.

      Thanks for the recs. :)

      • jillsorenson says:

        Don’t agree with you. I’ve read plenty of girl cooties comments and those ain’t it. Saying “I have no interest” isn’t the same as “eww vaginas!” I have no interest in m/m. Am I homophobic?

        I also find it offensive that you hold most romance readers in contempt. We can’t bond now. No cookie.

        • acrackedmoon says:

          There’s a difference between “I’m not interested and don’t seek this out specifically” and “lesbians turn me off, I’m only interested in cock, here’s a lengthy explanation as to why I am not homophobic.” Huuuge difference. There’s also a hefty amount of “I enjoy what I enjoy because I exist in a vacuum” going on, and we all know entertainment doesn’t exactly exist in a vacuum.

          I also find it offensive that you hold most romance readers in contempt. We can’t bond now. No cookie.

          I’ll live with it somehow.

        • saajanpatel says:

          I think the thing to look out for in the comments is the assumption that there is lack of interest publicly rather than personally. There is a weird edginess to people answering the question if f/f makes them uncomfortable.

          If we were talking about, for example, Indian people in fiction and I read “no one is interested” multiple times I’d find it offensive. I guess I could deal with “I don’t find Indian people sexually attractive so I’m not interested in their relationships unfolding” but it still seems like an offensive thing to say.

          I haven’t read much romance, but now I am curious about f/f now that is devoid of a male gaze.

  20. Katie Babs says:

    I’m an author who writes Gay, Lesbian and Straight romance. I can say that lesbian romance sells very well! One of my lesbian romances- The Princess’s Bride with Ravenous Romance in 9 months for this year alone has sold 2,000 copies and this title came out last August and was my biggest seller for me for 2012. I’m making much more writing lesbian romance than my MM and straight titles, where next year I plan on publishing mainly Lesbian romance because it pays so well. So I don’t know who’s saying lesbian fiction doesn’t sell well because in my case, I’ve made a nice sum of money that enabled me to get PAN status at RWA in 6 months and have made more in royalties than an advance at some traditional publishers.

    Ravenous Romance, Noble Publishing Romance, Decadent Publishing, Lyrical Press and Evernight Publishing all publish lesbian fiction. Samhain and Ellora’s cave want to publish more lesbian but I have a feeling their not getting enough submission.

  21. Most “representation” of lesbians in mainstream media is fucking icky. The way most dudebros (and even some people who should know better) see women, and queer women specifically, is the closest thing we’ve got to humans being seen through alien eyes. Remember, misogynistic fucks: not being a woman should never deter you from spouting bullshit about what women think, feel, need or want; why women do X or Y; or even periods!

    There is certain kinds of crap I don’t have to tolerate. First, that bullshit about women being completely asexual beings. FUCK YOU. Second, that bullshit about lesbian relationships being all about true, pure lurve and deeep feeelingsss (yes, even random hookups in bar bathrooms). FUCK YOU!!! Third, that claptrap about women being “more emotional” and “hardwired for empathy”.
    I DON’T CARE WHAT A FUCKING STUDY / STATISTICS / YOUR GRANDPA SAY, I WILL NEVER, EVER, EVER BELIEVE THAT SHIT AND YOU CAN’T FUCKING MAKE ME!!!
    It’s funny; I’ve received ‘headache’ excuses from dudes all too often, but never from women. And that oh-so-common situation wherein a woman you’ve just had sex with expects you to marry her has never happened to me. Guess I’m not speshul enough.

    Also, remember, homophobic fucks: not being a lesbian shouldn’t deter you from spouting wank about what goes through lesbians’ heads, how they have sex, etc. And apparently using strap-ons is the only way lesbians have sex. Because it isn’t sex if there isn’t a cock involved (thank you, deluded MRAs, what would I do without you).

    One of those links about F/F not selling is from absolutewrite, a gigantic hub of bigotry. Every time the topic of including marginalized characters in a story comes up, the same responses are spouted: 1) But it will turn the story into a soapbox!!! 2) I don’t want to read about X issue, fuck you. 3) It’s not original, it’s a GIMMICK, and therefore bad. 4) Political Correctness (TM), Political Correctness!; And my favourite: I SEE CHARACTERS AS CHARACTERS FIRST AND X SECOND, BECAUSE IT DOESN’T MATTER, THEREFORE YOU SHOULD KEEP WRITING ABOUT CIS STRAIGHT WHITE DUDES. *puke*
    It’s always the same excuses, be it about F/F not selling, stories with female leads not selling, stories with men of color as leads not selling, etc. They have never tried to sell it, but they already know it won’t sell. Meanwhile, they keep shoving the same cookie cutter “plots” with the same cliches and the same dudebros as leads down our throats.

    On a side note, it’s interesting that all sorts of (gender essentialist, misogynistic, herterosexist) wank theories have been regurgitated regarding why straight women enjoy man-on-man action, but no one has spouted similar wank theories regarding why straight men enjoy girl-on-girl. And of course no one has spouted wank theories about why some men enjoy rape porn.

  22. @saajanpatel

    If we were talking about, for example, Indian people in fiction and I read “no one is interested” multiple times I’d find it offensive. I guess I could deal with “I don’t find Indian people sexually attractive so I’m not interested in their relationships unfolding” but it still seems like an offensive thing to say.

    Okay, I can see that. Sorry. I’ve read a lot of anti-f/f comments, so those seem pretty mild in comparison. RRR is one of my favorite sites and I know most of the commenters. It’s difficult for me to hear them called “gross.”

    I read a lot of anti-romance comments also and sometimes it presses my buttons. This is a post about inclusion. Are you open to reading lesbian romance, @acrackedmoon? You might find what you’ve been looking for there.

    • acrackedmoon says:

      I’ve seen exactly the same kind of sentiments expressed in a very similar manner: by people who are deathly afraid of being seen as anything less than enlightened, progressive and morally flawless–and as such, they don’t make outright homophobic/racist/sexist comments. Instead they make comments that they believe won’t come across as -phobic or -ist, so they can express these thoughts while feeling “safe” under the guise of “I’m not interested/it wouldn’t sell/it’s not commercially viable.” And they sound so bloody defensive.

      Take Mercedes Lackey.

      While I never say “never,” the likelihood of a transgendered lead character is so slim as to be invisible.

      Here is why. I support myself with my writing; I do not have the luxury of writing books for special-interest audiences. In my limited experience, so much of a transgendered person’s life and thought is tied up in their gender difficulties, the ordinary reader would swiftly become bored with such a character; even Vanyel’s whinging grates on some peoples’ nerves.

      Sounds familiar? The general reader would be bored, wouldn’t be interested, etc. It doesn’t outright come and say “I think transgendered subjects are boring” since Lackey realizes that’ll get her buried in shit, so she said that instead under the belief that it’s okay to say. It still offended, very understandably, lots of trans people.

      I read a lot of anti-romance comments also and sometimes it presses my buttons.

      Romance readers aren’t, y’know, a systematically oppressed minority. But to amend my comment, it’s not so much the readers that I find gross–though I stand by my statement that the comments over there are repulsive–but the genre’s tropes: M/M writes women out, and straight romance is often about women whose lives, desires and ambitions revolve around men. Paranormal romance/”urban” fantasy is mostly useless dreck, and frequently offensive to boot. Most of it is heteronormative-to-homophobic, ethnocentric-to-racist, and gender-essentialist, and I’ve read an unfortunate amount of it. It’s as regressive as some of the worst fantasy subgenres (high/epic fantasy, sword and sorcery, and the grimdark purveyors), with attitudes toward gender that are only slightly less troubling.

      I haven’t tried reading any lesbian romance, but if the writing is good and its reliance on romance tropes is slim I’m open to trying some. I am, naturally, very much picking up the lesbian steampunk anthologies.

      • jillsorenson says:

        Oh, I thought you were a YA reader when I made the earlier recs. My mistake. I don’t read much SF/F but I know of a few lesbian titles that might interest you. Women on the Edge of Space is an anthology that was submitted to me for review. I felt it was more SF than romantic/erotic. The Gunfighter and the Gearhead was just recommended to me last week. I’m excited to read it, looks unique.

        g luck

  23. I may be making a terrible error commenting here! But I do think it’s a topic worth talking about and it’s important to acknowledge that boy, we have a problem, and if people throw rotten fruit at me I can always back away with speed: well, we’ll see.

    So here’s the thing: I mostly agree with you. Malinda Lo doesn’t get one tenth of the recognition she deserves. (I believe she does sell better than either me or Cindy Pon, but she doesn’t get the sales she deserves either.) Nor does other YA fiction with lesbian characters: A Love Story Starring My Dead Best Friend by Emily Horner, the Bermudez Triangle by Maureen Johnson, The Will of the Empress by Tamora Pierce, and Wildthorn by Jane Eagland. (I understand you’re not a big fan of YA but since this is a discussion, I thought people reading through the comments might be interested in recommendations, and so… here they are. Some books I have read and enjoyed!) And there is far too little of it anyway.

    There’s absolutely a dearth of any YA fiction with LGBT characters: all media doesn’t have enough representation, as we all know–and with YA, we also have the fact that gay characters are seen as inherently more sexual, and gay kissing and more, inherently more sexy and scandalous activity, which means there’s pushback from teachers, librarians, book fairs and book outlets not to include any such racy stuff for the kids. I think that helps produce the bloody shameful statistics that Malinda Lo showed on her blog recently.

    And there’s a dearth of lesbian fiction especially, both because of the bias against gay characters of both sexes and because of the attitude which we see everyfreakingwhere that girls suck: girl politicians suck, actresses suck, girl directors suck, girl authors suck, and certainly girl characters suck. They’re boring, or silly, or useless or too into romance or whatever, and in consequence two girls–being into each other and into a romance with each other, no boy in sight!–is received as even more boring/useless/what have you. It’s a horrible attitude–it’s really troubling, and I see it all the time.

    As regards other stuff mentioned in this post, it seems disingenuous of me to pretend not to’ve seen it–I’m leaving Cassandra Clare out of this, because that is clearly a discussion all the internet could rage on about forever, though I like her and her books:

    it’s YA fiction: who gives a toss about quality?

    I realise you don’t think much of my writing, uh, pretty obviously (which is fine)–but for the record, I do give a toss, and so do many: this is a genre that I love, and that matters to me.

    But the issue’s moot, as I do not think having more gay characters and particularly more gay women in the genre will affect the quality in any way except to improve it. And this is fiction geared toward people at a time when a lot of them are realising and having to deal with their sexuality, often feeling alone and strange in it no matter what that sexuality is, so representation is particularly vital.

    I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with having written fanfiction: ‘yes, I did it, and so?’ is my attitude there. It’s a thing a lot of people do when they’re fans… of fiction, and fond of writing. Specially when they’re teens, which I was when I began. Nor having written fanfiction solely for YA writers: Havemercy is adult, and so is the Temeraire series by Naomi Novik, another of the few authors who will confess they’ve written fanfiction. (Lord knows I don’t blame the ones who keep it on the downlow.)

    But that doesn’t mean that there isn’t sometimes a similar attitude to gay male characters in books as there is (again sometimes) in fanfiction with gay male pairings: the attitude that a) boys are more interesting and b) it gets rid of the icky girls. And it’s an attitude that I find deeply uncomfortable and I back away whenever I encounter it: calling it out is necessary.

    I came here mostly to agree:

    More queer female visibility isn’t going to take away from or diminish the visibility of male homosexuality: at this point it pretty much can’t. Wouldn’t it be nice if there were more stuff for both?

    That’s the really important thing, and it’s important for people to say it, and important for people to act on. I absolutely agree that it would be wonderful.

    • acrackedmoon says:

      Hi, gosh, you are being very graceful about this; thank you for that and I apologize if my post came across as abrasive toward you/singling you out. I didn’t mean to target you specifically, but it’s that your name comes up a lot in the “yes to gay in YA” discussions and people’ve recommended your titles for positive portrayal of gay boys.

      They’re boring, or silly, or useless or too into romance or whatever, and in consequence two girls–being into each other and into a romance with each other, no boy in sight!–is received as even more boring/useless/what have you. It’s a horrible attitude–it’s really troubling, and I see it all the time.

      I remember being like this when I was younger. I didn’t like pink and frilly things and, god forbid, dolls! I gamed, I could pass myself off as a boy online, I read fantasy, my goodness I was so clever. Unlike those silly stupid girls with their stupid silly girl things. Me? ONE OF THE BOYS. LOOK AT ME, BOYS. That was when I thought I was straight, too. Awful. When I started to become less homophobic growing up it was rallying to the defense of gay men first because, hey, I thought lesbians weren’t subjected to any real homophobia anyway.

      I realise you don’t think much of my writing, uh, pretty obviously (which is fine)–but for the record, I do give a toss, and so do many: this is a genre that I love, and that matters to me.

      I reviewed Marr’s Wicked Lovely and appreciated the Feminism 101 stuff in it like no tomorrow–and as mentioned, I couldn’t finish Lo’s Huntress despite it containing exactly the kind of thing I ought to love–but the writing’s kind of dreadful and sub-workmanlike. The substance is something I can appreciate; the craft and execution are, well, not. It feels like a lot of YA writers write to a certain reading level in fear that the target audience would find polysyllabic words or well-crafted prose off-putting or something; this is a problem even with an author I otherwise like writing YA, ala China Mieville’s Un Lun Dun. It ties to my thing with the fanfiction. I don’t think fanfiction per se is contemptible, but the attitudes YA inherits from it are pretty off-putting like the insularity, the reliance on tropes, and yes, the “eww girl cooties” attitude that I felt was present even in Rowling’s canon. That shows up in some of the non-YA fantasy featuring gay male characters I mentioned too, come to that.

      The misogyny is replete in SF/F at large, too, made worse by the neckbeards and the controlling old guard of straight white dudes who edit zines and publish things–but there are works in SF/F with substance I love and whose craft I can also appreciate, so yeah. I may just not be of the right age to read YA and, truth be told, I’m really more interested in SF/F at large with queer female representation. Bringing up “yes to gay in YA” was more of a springboard, though very much it is important in the sense that YA is read by young people, and queer young people need it something fierce.

  24. Well, I’m pleased and proud to be recommended, of course, but that needn’t get in the way in the call for more gay ladies in YA and adult sff, and I certainly won’t be pleased later if my gay male characters get more love/praise than my gay female characters.

    I don’t think young adult has ‘inherited’ much from fanfiction–no more ex-fanfiction writers write YA than write adult, as discussed in my earlier post. Young adult was also around long before J.K. Rowling: I came to love it through the young adult shelf in my library where I found Diana Wynne Jones, Tamora Pierce, Robin McKinley and Margaret Mahy–but young adult and fanfiction both exist in, well, the world, and sadly these attitudes are pretty prevalent!

    Personal opinions are personal, basically: I think Malinda Lo is a good writer, and I enjoyed Huntress! I like her prose, and I’ve read a ton of adult and YA titles this year and yet the book I enjoyed most for its prose was the YA Daughter of Smoke and Bone. There are YA novels I think are ghastly-awful-deathly-bad, but I don’t think YA is necessarily bad any more than I think any genre is, though I consider some genres not my cuppa. I will say the majority of the YA books I truly hate also tend to be entirely straight, white and able-bodied books (though naturally there are entirely straight, white and able-bodied books that I love), which doesn’t surprise me, since that indicates a certain narrowness of vision that doesn’t bode well for other stuff I enjoy.

    Though one thing that YA does and must do sometimes is provide the 101 for them that need it: I agree with you Wicked Lovely gives good feminism 101! And Karen Healey’s Guardian of the Dead provided a really great asexuality 101 that I think would’ve been super enlightening for me as a teen, and yet the providing-101-stuff is annoying for some readers who feel past needing it. So that’s a thing.

    I may just not be of the right age to read YA

    Well, that again’s a matter of personal opinion: I read YA (and would read it even if I didn’t write it) despite not being a teen, and so do many. But certainly just not fancying YA is totally valid because… of course your personal taste is valid… /obvious Sarah is obvious.

    truth be told, I’m really more interested in SF/F at large with queer female representation.

    It would be great to have more queer female representation for both YA and adult sf/f, absolutely. I think we see queer representation more in contemporary fiction of both YA and adult, and I’ve had discussions considering whether that’s because with contemporary it’s seen as an ISSUE book, and THAT’s okay, but queer people (especially ladies) having awesome adventures in space/magic fantasyland/a New York where faerie drug dealers lurk? That’s resisted–and it shouldn’t be.

    Ah well. Onward and upward! Keep on fightin’ and keep on talkin’, as they say, and I hope we’ll see a result in YA and adult sff soon.

    • acrackedmoon says:

      I’ve googled up your name + “queer female” or “lesbian” (uhhh wow this sounds creepy, like I’m trying to find out your orientation but, well, I’m not!) and it yielded not very much. It’d seem your queer female characters don’t get mentioned much?

      Oh, I’m not suggesting that YA started after fanfic; it’s rather that the YA writers/readers I see today seem very fandom-y.

      Though one thing that YA does and must do sometimes is provide the 101 for them that need it: I agree with you Wicked Lovely gives good feminism 101! And Karen Healey’s Guardian of the Dead provided a really great asexuality 101 that I think would’ve been super enlightening for me as a teen, and yet the providing-101-stuff is annoying for some readers who feel past needing it. So that’s a thing.

      I would probably not have grown up being so homophobic (and self-denying/self-hating) if I’d had more 101 in my life. Instead I was reading, what, Terry Brooks? And Goodkind, which is to say: reams and reams of ewwww in retrospective. I bet I wouldn’t have spent so much time writing my very own generic fantasy full of straight white people, too.

      And I don’t find the 101 stuff annoying either, even now. It’s more the writing and so on, but as you say, tastes vary.

  25. (Sorry about not replying to your replies, whenever I try the blog attempts to make me log into wordpress!)

    It’d seem your queer female characters don’t get mentioned much?

    As a writer, I’m kind of a baby: I have one series published (essentially one story), and the main gay relationship is between guys, so that’s the one that’s mentioned, which is understandable! There are queer female characters but they’re more minor. That’s why I said I wouldn’t be pleased later: I meant later when I have new books out where the gay ladies are the more major characters.

    YA writers/readers I see today seem very fandom-y

    *blinks* Well, I’m not sure what you mean by that, so I’m going to leave it alone!

    It’s more the writing and so on, but as you say, tastes vary.

    Well… writing also varies, again in every genre? I am not much for modern litfic, but I wouldn’t say that all the writing in literary fiction sucks. I agree more 101 for more teens would be great. I was perhaps inadvisably talking about ‘stuff about YA that I’ve seen bugs people who think about these issues.’

    I seem to have wandered far afield from the important subject: I’m uncomfortable about generalisations about a genre or those writing in it! But ‘this genre is not to my taste,’ of course, is a completely valid opinion, and ‘we need more gay ladies in all genres’ is more important than whether people like YA, fantasy, crime or biographies about leopards.

    • acrackedmoon says:

      Ah yeah, the blog’s structured pretty oddly. Wonder if there’s anything I can change in the settings for that.

      Well… writing also varies, again in every genre? I am not much for modern litfic, but I wouldn’t say that all the writing in literary fiction sucks.

      I’ve yet to find a YA book whose writing I genuinely like, and I’ve tried to give them fair shakes rather than just shoot fish in barrels like Twilight. Obviously I prioritize things most YA readers don’t, so that’s that. Though since you mention modern litfic, from a cursory glance at it my friend and I–who neither of us reads it as our primary reading stuff–get the impression it’s fairly okay in terms of color representation, likely more so than adult SF/F or YA. The vast majority of it is still about white middle-class people, men especially, dealing with midlife crises or something insipid like that, but hey.

      My issues with Cindy Pon have to do not with just the writing but culture (to the point that I find white people who ohhhh-ahhhh over its cultural markers incredibly suspect, and that original cover too for that matter) and gender, but that’s neither here nor there.

  26. While I don’t blame you for having trouble getting through the Kushiel books, I’m curious as to why you consider the “sadistic villain” a queer woman, but not the equally bisexual heroine?

    Most of the lesbian fiction I’ve read has been neither YA nor SF/F, but there’s a comic book series by Ross Campbell called “Wet Moon” that I’ve been following. I’m not sure I would call it YA, but I know a lot of teenage girls read and enjoy it. It features a large female cast with a wide variety of body types, lots of POC, and lots of queer characters. And I know his zombie comic, “The Abandoned” (which features a black lesbian as the heroine), is shelved in the YA section at my local library.

    • acrackedmoon says:

      I only read the first book but, IIRC, in it she only has sex with men and her one true love is the monk dude. But it’s been a long time since I read the thing (and have had no reason, or desire, to reread), so naturally I could be misremembering. In which case I stand corrected.

  27. Ugh, I can’t seem to do threaded comments with this Twitter log-in. Anyway, I can’t honestly remember what happened in the first book versus the other two, but Phedre definitely expresses attraction to both men and women and has numerous sexual encounters with both, although her one true love is indeed the monk dude. Phedre’s relationship with the villain is heavily complicated by their mutual attraction, and there is actually another female character (a member of the royal family, I think?) who becomes a friend and long-term on-and-off sexual partner for Phedre, even after she gives up the whole prostitution business.

    That said, Phedre’s sexual encounters ARE heavily skewed towards men, and in her little love triangle with the villain and the monk dude, it’s the straight guy who represents the virtuous option and the queer woman who represents the scheming, devious option, so I’m not trying to suggest the sexual politics in the series aren’t problematic. But I do think the heroine was portrayed as pretty explicitly bisexual.

    • acrackedmoon says:

      That said, Phedre’s sexual encounters ARE heavily skewed towards men, and in her little love triangle with the villain and the monk dude, it’s the straight guy who represents the virtuous option and the queer woman who represents the scheming, devious option, so I’m not trying to suggest the sexual politics in the series aren’t problematic.

      Ah yeah, that’s how I remember it. I also recall Phedre’s reaction/attraction to Melisande (sp?) as being presented along the line of… eh. Unhealthy? Anyway, it’s kind of funny to me that in a series where so many people are bi–including men–the love of Phedre’s life is one of the few men who are straight.

      I’ve also heard of skeevy race stuff about later books, so I never went back to the series. Prior to that I actually thought the first was okay, but too info-dumpy, and when I was told the next books info-dumped about a bunch of new places I decided, meh, let’s not.

      But I do think the heroine was portrayed as pretty explicitly bisexual.

      Yeah, which is why I realize I’m probably forgetting a lot of stuff. Quite unfortunately the most I remember from Kushiel’s Dart is Phedre’s wanking over how “brown” isn’t good enough for her and that her eyes are bistre damn it.

  28. Oh yes, I nearly stopped reading when I got to that bistre bit. I did ultimately enjoy the trilogy, but having the protagonist wax poetic over her own appearance in the first chapter was probably not the best introduction.

    Can’t remember specifically skeevy race stuff, but a lot of the world-building was certainly questionable, so I wouldn’t be surprised. And I could NOT finish the second trilogy, which kind of put me off Carey. But this Santa Olivia sounds intriguing.

  29. N says:

    It still boggles my mind that that plagiarist hack Clare is considered a legitimate author, when all she does is rewrite her fanfic – into not one series, but two! And the central romances of her books – both the published series – are m/f love triangles, idk what people are going nuts over the m/m romance for. It’s very much a beta affair in the story.

    Speaking of Silver Phoenix and its original cover, most YA covers are shit anyway, and I found the replacement cover more problematic (a white girl in a sleeveless dress – very distinctly 20th/21st-century garb – on the cover of a book set in pre-1900s China, whose heroine is Chinese? I know the obvious cultural markers can be cringeworthy, but the whitewashing is even worse, imho)

    • acrackedmoon says:

      One of Clare’s books was voted a YA favorite at Goodreads this year. Awesome, what.

      Speaking of Silver Phoenix and its original cover, most YA covers are shit anyway, and I found the replacement cover more problematic (a white girl in a sleeveless dress – very distinctly 20th/21st-century garb – on the cover of a book set in pre-1900s China, whose heroine is Chinese? I know the obvious cultural markers can be cringeworthy, but the whitewashing is even worse, imho)

      Uhhm, how to put it. I have problems with both of Cindy Pon’s books. A lot of problems. Many of them have to do with race/culture. The original cover I found exotifying (what’s with that fabric? What’s she doing with her hands? Oh my god we have a dragon in the background it’s GOT TO BE CHINESE!1!!) and aesthetically appalling: compare with Malinda Lo’s Huntress cover and it’s a world of difference.

      I can’t stand Pon’s handling of west-versus-east in Fury of the Phoenix and want to treat it with fire.

      • N says:

        The original cover for Silver Phoenix does look like a bad Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon cosplay, but I still maintain the whitewashing is a terrible, terrible idea.

        I understand your point about exotifying (and the cover does it in the most cliche way possible) but at the very least it did clue a possible reader in to the idea that they’re reading a book set in China. I guess it’s really a choice between a rock and a hard place there, and neither choice – the “exotic” one or the one that bears no resemblance at all to the book’s contents (seriously, girl in a sleeveless shirt?) is appealing at all.

        Maybe the lesson here is that YA publishers should start hiring better designers for their book covers, the one for Huntress is classier than most and I’d actually not be ashamed to read it in public.

        • acrackedmoon says:

          I don’t think the whitewashing is fantastic either, but my opinion on Pon’s writing is along the line of “this shit should never have been written.” There’s also the thing with a lot of readers trying way too hard to come across as enlightened by praising these shite books to high heavens, lauding the exotic, lush setting (note: second book? takes place in Whitelandia!) and the strong heroine, blah blah blah. And how the cover is gorgeous because there’s a girl wearing a kimono on it.

      • N says:

        oh, and speaking of Clare, she not only uses queer people as gimmicks, she does the same with people from “other” cultures (her latest has a part-Chinese protagonist randomly breaking into Chinese when speaking to another character who doesn’t know the language – in my experience, not a single fluently bilingual person I’ve known has ever done that).

        YA favourite at goodreads, indeed.

        • acrackedmoon says:

          Me neither. I’m also fluently bilingual myself and don’t do that crap. I think Clare is throwing in gay characters and characters of color just to tick the social justice boxes and get some cred, IMO, not out of any real interest in representation (and even if she did, the Chinese thing sounds pretty rottenly executed regardless).

  30. As I often troll new audiobook release listings, there were published today:

    Best Lesbian Erotica 2007: http://www.audible.com/pd/ref=cat_2?asin=B006TJWUZE

    Beebo Brinker: http://www.audible.com/pd/ref=cat_6?asin=B006P5PWC0

    Here is the G/L category there: http://www.audible.com/cat/2226709011

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