Joe Abercrombie’s THE LAST ARGUMENT OF KINGS and the rape of lesbians

This isn’t a review. Quite the contrary: I was reading a review of this book and it reminded me of a certain something. As the subject title suggests, this is going to be triggering as fuck.

So, right off, I’m going to tell you that I think very, very little of Abercrombie. I don’t see anything exceptional in his books: to me they are nothing more than yet another tired and tiresome effort to out-gritty, out-grimdark George R. R. Martin except with even less engaging characters, and more shittiness. Yes, that’s right babies, I declare Abercrombie’s narrative shittier and creepier by far than Martin’s–and that’s Martin with the rapeyness and the “Aryan Savior of Mongol Horde” fame.

What cinched this, you ask? The Last Argument of Kings, the conclusion of his First Law trilogy.

A little context. You don’t need to have read the book or the preceding two, but the basics are: one of the main characters, Jezel, has become king. Another main characters–a POV in fact–is Inquisitor Glokta, who’s achieved ascendancy in his organization, which specializes in torturing confessions out of people. Princess Terez, daughter of Duke Orso, has been politically sold to Jezel to marry him and become queen. Except Terez hates Jezel’s guts and has no use for him, and doesn’t do much to hide it. She refuses to have sex with him. Glokta, finding this situation quite untenable pressured by asshole wizard Bayaz, decides to intervene to ensure that a royal heir will be born:

‘You don’t have much use for men, do you?’

The two women looked up at him together, then Shalere snatched her hand away from the queen’s shoulder. ‘I will have your meaning!’ barked Terez, but her voice was shrill, almost panicked.

‘I think you know my meaning well enough.’

Terez’s voice being shrill and shrieky and screechy is going to be a theme. Countess Shalere is Terez’s childhood friend and lover. Yep, Terez is a lesbian. A man-hating lesbian at that, because where would we be in an Abercrombie book without a lazy stereotype?

Take a guess where this is going. Oh, guess!

The two men and the two women lurched around the far end of the room in an ungainly dance. One of the Practicals seized the Countess by one wrist, dragged her away from the queen’s clutching hand and forced her down onto her knees, twisting her arms behind her, snapping heavy irons shut on her wrists. Terez shrieked, punched, kicked, clawed at the other, but she might as well have vented her fury on a tree. The huge man barely moved, his eyes every bit as emotionless as the mask below them.

Glokta found that he was almost smiling as he watched the ugly scene. I may be crippled, and hideous, and in constant pain, but the humiliation of beautiful women is one pleasure I can still enjoy. I do it now with threats and violence, instead of with soft words and entreaties, but still. Almost as much fun as it ever was.

One of the Practicals forced a canvas bag over Shalere’s head, turning her cries to muffled sobs, then marched her helplessly across the room. The other stayed where he was for a moment, keeping the queen herded into the corner. Then he backed off towards the door. On his way he picked up the chair he had moved and carefully put it back exactly as he had found it.

‘Curse you!’ Terez screeched, her clenched fists trembling as the door clicked shut and left the two of them alone. ‘Curse you, you twisted bastard! If you harm her—’

‘It will not come to that. Because you have the means of her deliverance well within your grasp.’

The queen swallowed, chest heaving. ‘What must I do?’

‘Fuck.’ The word somehow sounded twice as ugly in the beautiful surroundings. ‘And bear children. I will give the Countess seven days in the darkness, unmolested. If, at the end of that time, I do not hear that you have set the king’s cock on fire every night, I will introduce her to my Practicals. Poor fellows. They get so little exercise. Ten minutes each should do the trick, but there are plenty of them, in the House of Questions. I daresay we can keep your childhood friend quite busy night and day.’

Yep, you read that right. Glokta is blackmailing her into marital rape. Not just once, oh no, but to “set the king’s cock on fire every night” for seven days. Oh wait, not just seven days. But years, enough to have four children. By threatening to have her lover gang-raped. 

A spasm of horror passed over Terez’ face. And why not? This is a low chapter even for me. ‘If I do as you ask?’

‘Then the Countess will be kept quite safe and sound. Once you are verifiably with child, I will return her to you. Things can be as they are now, during the period of your confinement. Two boys, as heirs, two girls, to marry off, and we can be done with one another. The king can find his entertainment elsewhere.’

‘But, that will take years!’

‘You could get it done in three or four, if you really ride him hard. And you might find it makes everyone’s lives easier if you at least pretend to enjoy it.’

‘Pretend?’ she breathed.

‘The more you seem to like it, the quicker it will be over. The cheapest whore on the docks can squeal for her coppers when the sailors stick her. Are you telling me you cannot squeal for the king of the Union? You offend my patriotic sensibilities! Uh!’ he gasped, rolling his eyes in a parody of ecstasy. ‘Ah! Yes! Just there! Don’t stop!’ He curled his lip at her. ‘You see? Even I can do it! A liar of your experience should have no difficulty.’

JOE ABERCROMBIE YOU PATHETIC EXCUSE FOR A HUMAN BEING

YOU FUCKING WASTE OF OXYGEN

Not enough yet? How about this.

‘Terez, my…’ he fumbled for the word. Darling scarcely seemed to cover it. Nor did love. Worst enemy might have, but it hardly would have helped matters. ‘Can I—’

She cut him off, as ever, but not with the tirade he was expecting. ‘I’m sorry for the way that I have treated you. For the things that I have said… you must think me…’

There were tears in her eyes. Actual tears. He would hardly have believed until that moment that she could cry. He took a hurried step or two towards her, one hand out, no idea of what to do. He had never dared to hope for an apology, and certainly not one so earnestly and honestly delivered.

‘I know,’ he stuttered, ‘I know… I’m not what you wanted in a husband. I’m sorry for that. But I’m as much a prisoner in this as you are. I only hope… that perhaps we can make the best of it. Perhaps we might find a way… to care for one another? We have no one else, either of us. Please, tell me what I have to do—’

‘Shhhh.’ She touched one finger to his lips, looking into his eyes, one half of her face glowing orange from the fire, the other half black with shadow. Her fingers worked through his hair and drew him towards her. She kissed him, gently, awkwardly, almost, their lips brushing, then pressing clumsily together. He slid one hand round behind her neck, under her ear, his thumb stroking at her smooth cheek. Their mouths worked mechanically, accompanied by the soft squeak of breath in his nose, the gentle squelch of spit moving. Hardly the most passionate kiss he had ever enjoyed, but it was a great deal more than he had ever expected to get from her. There was a pleasant tingling building in his crotch as he pushed his tongue into her mouth.

He ran his other palm down her back, feeling the bumps of her spine under his fingers. He grunted softly as he slid his hand over her arse, down the side of her thigh then up between her legs, the hem of her shift gathering round his wrist. He felt her shudder, felt her flinch, and bite her lip in shock, it seemed, or even in disgust. He jerked his hand back, and they broke apart, both looking at the floor. ‘I’m sorry,’ he muttered, inwardly cursing his eagerness. ‘I—’

‘No. It’s my fault. I’m not… experienced… with men…’ Jezal blinked for a moment, then almost smiled at a surge of relief. Of course. Now everything was clear. She was so assured, so sharp, it had never even occurred to him that she might be a virgin. It was simple fear that made her tremble so. Fear of disappointing him. He felt a rush of sympathy.

‘Don’t worry,’ he murmured it softly, stepping forward and taking her in his arms. He felt her stiffen, no doubt with nervousness, and he gently stroked her hair. ‘I can wait… we don’t have to… not yet.’

‘No.’ She said it with a touching determination, looking him fearlessly in the eye. ‘No. We do.’

She dragged her shift up and over her head, let it drop to the floor. She came close to him, took hold of his wrist, guided it back to her thigh, then upwards.

‘Ah,’ she whispered, urgent and throaty, her lips brushing his cheek, her breath hot in his ear. ‘Yes… just there… don’t stop.’ She led him breathless to the bed.

Not enough FUCK YOU in the world. Or EWWWWWWWW for that matter.

Now do I believe Joe Abercrombie in real life endorses the rape of lesbians? Well nope, fucking duh. But in his rush to masturbate to his own gritty grim darkness he’s contributing to a narrative where women–and gay women especially–must suffer. If they aren’t angsting they are being raped, blackmailed into marital rape, or being punished in some way because oh my god she doesn’t want cock and we can’t have that, can we? Lesbians must be put in their places most of all for the crime of not wanting sex with men. It’s a damaging narrative. It’s a bloody fucking awful narrative that reinforces a greater trend and which, moreover, is something Abercrombie will never be hurt by. I’ve no idea if he is straight but he’s very certainly a man, which makes this about a thousand times more repulsive and disgusting than the worst M/M rape fetishization can ever hope to be.

The most hilarious part, and I use that word in the angriest way possible, is that Inquisitor Glokta is something of a fan favorite. I mean I even liked him before I read this fucking book. Like so:

Glokta: Awesome ending and my favorite character alongside Logen. So much character depth. On the one hand, life has taught him that weakness and naiveté are rewarded with severe punishment so he rarely has anything resembling happiness or hope in his life. Despite that, he still clings to his humanity and offers glimpses into it despite his understanding that it is unwise to do so (Sparing Eider’s life more than once, sparing Vitari’s life more than once, stopping the torture of Severard when he understood that he was not lying about the Sult, last and not least of all, having feelings for Ardee and fearing and preparing for her rejection when he asks her to marry him and continuing to fear her rejection of him afterwards.)

And that’s from someone who has read The Last Argument of Kings, and thus is probably aware of–you know–the whole blackmailing into rape thing. My goodness that poor naive man. His feelings about the love of his life! That makes him multi-dimensional, right? Makes him totally human and sympathetic, no? This redditor is hardly alone in his favorable, glittering opinions of the character either. Unsurprisingly if you love Tyrion you’ll be sure to love Glokta. Like, Tyrion Lannister? The guy who participated in the gang-rape of his own wife? Wooooo. Real big hero that. But we are meant to sympathize, see, feel bad for him because isn’t that an awful thing and so sad? It’s about Tyrion, the rapist. Not Tysha, the raped.

Excuse me while I go vomit.

And this, more than anything, pins down Abercrombie very much as a neckbeard writer writing for other neckbeards. People can praise him to high heavens for his astoundingly clever “inversion” of fantasy tropes, of his depthful handling of violence and characterization or… whatever it is that neckbeards think he does, or whatever it is that Abercrombie thinks he’s doing. But at the end of the day it’s still the kind of narrative where a lesbian woman is threatened with rape, another is forced into marital rape, and the person responsible for both gets away scott-free because Abercrombie is more interested in emphasizing how broken Glokta is and how abloo blooooo  what a poor man, what with his Nice Guy antics around the love of his life, Ardee West–another woman who’s been abused, by the way!

Excuse me while I go vomit. Again.

ETA: awww yeah the buttmad fanboy brigade is on it. See Westeros.org thread.

That is probably the most poorly written piece of screed i’ve seen given as evidence of anything in a long time. What a piece of shit article, and a truly stunning display of ignorance.

It’s just the standard “appearance equals endorsement” argument plus extra CAPLOCKS RAGE!, with all the usual whining about how this supposedly contributes to a Culture of Rape/Sexual Violence/Whatever.

Isn’t it stunning how a bunch of fanboys don’t give a shit about rape culture?

It’s not so much what shes saying as the way in which she is saying it, with the random all caps sentences accusing Ambercrombie of being a rape monster, etc. Plus the there’s a snide comment down a ways about Ambercrombie fans that makes her sound like….well a bitch.

Awww, and “a crazy bitch” later on. Keep being classy, George R. R. Martin gritty grimdark fans. Here is what people defending this lovely portrayal of lesbian rape have to say:

&c, &c.

EDIT: Abercromblah showed up to confess that what he did was shitty writing relying on a lazy, offensive stereotype. Which makes the fanboys flailing over this that much more laughable.

Where I think I failed pretty badly is that Terez is really not a good character. She’s one-noted, shrill, icy, bitchy, and just doesn’t come across as a particularly convincing or well-rounded real person. It stretches credibility that she wouldn’t behave more cannily and carefully in this situation. That’s shoddy writing by any standard, but worse yet it plays into a really ugly stereotype of shrill man-hating (possibly quite thick) lesbian, and that badly undermines any attempt to do something interesting with this situation. If Terez is a much more convincing, multi-faceted, less stereotyped character with an authentic voice and a more believable motivation I’m sure many people would still have their problems with this scene but from my point of view at least it would be much improved. [...] It doesn’t help at all that the female characters in the First Law ain’t that great across the board, really. Ferro is the only female point of view and for various reasons probably outside the scope of this particular thread I think I could have done a whole lot better with her too. I actually think the other (almost) rape in the series, in the second book, is worse, because it’s handled more or less completely disposably and the female character in that case, Cathil, is still more absent of personality than Terez and pretty much exists to elicit certain responses in the men. Which is kind of sexist writing 101, sadly. There’s also a rather ugly pattern, so obvious to me now that I can hardly believe I failed to notice it at the time, of pretty much all the central female characters having been the victims of abuse of one kind or another. I suppose you could say a fair few of the central male characters have been as well but that’s pretty weak sauce as a defence.

Leave a comment

39 Comments

  1. Nonny Morgan

     /  December 9, 2011

    WTF is this shit??? D:

  2. Skipping over the rest of the article to answer the above-the-cut question:

    Princess Terez womans up and becomes a leader of a revolution that destroys the Patriarchal inquisitors and claims the throne of her new paradise?

    Reads the rest of the article:

    Damnit. This is geometrically worse than Mary-suedom.

  3. I think the writer underestimates historical women in politics if this scenario is meant to be realistic. If this princess was raised in court, wouldn’t the majority of her life have been spent gaining leverage, making allies, picking out her enemies and rivals? The countess doesn’t have any supporters who would have objected to her imprisonment? And I don’t find it realistic, in a historical setting, for someone to pull a fast one on a homosexual character by drawing attention to the fact that she is expected to enter into a political marriage and give birth to an heir. I’d find it more believable for a homosexual character to have already come to terms with the expectations of a heteronormative society. Her shock at being asked to “fuck” a man is unrealistic to me. Wouldn’t she be more concerned about producing an heir for her own security or political gain?

    I don’t know, it feels like the writer wrote that scene just to show off the interrogator’s ruthless side. But that’s easy when the opponent is designated to be weaker by default. On top of that, it’s a low blow that seems to have very little thought behind it. There’s this underlying implication that lesbians are afraid of men, sexually, or something. That does bother me.

    Abercrombie is an author whose work has been recommended to me before. Maybe it’s a good thing I’ve been too busy to read much.

    • acrackedmoon

       /  December 9, 2011

      In the entire series only two women (2) get any agency, and even then it’s pretty iffy–Ardee ends up married to the torturer, which, uh yeah. No woman, AFAIK, wields any political power–not even “behind the scenes” or “pulling the strings” or whatever. I am sure this is entirely surprising to you.

      There’s this underlying implication that lesbians are afraid of men, sexually, or something.

      Yeaaah. “Hurr hurr you only don’t want men because YOU FEAR THE COCK” is so much rooted in a combination of misogyny and homophobia both.

  4. @CaptainFalon IRONIC that you would say this, as Abercrombie is the man who wrote that he must, simply must, depict women as trod-upon because HISTORY SAYS SO. Never mind that numerous women throughout the shittiest periods of history have been cunning and sly and found ways to get a life that for all its flaws they have a measure of control over. And yes, of course, women have been treated horrendously – and still are – but there is so much more to our stories – but why would Abercrombie care for that when LEGIT HISTORY-AUTHORISED RAPETIEMS GOGO.

    Somehow I suspect Abercrombie has never picked up a history book. Perhaps I should bludgeon him with one.

    • acrackedmoon

       /  December 10, 2011

      Perhaps I should bludgeon him with one.

      This sounds like a most efficient way to crash-course teach him history. I approve.

  5. Hi.
    I enjoy this blog and have often agreed with you. And I’ve also agreed with you a great deal on Abercrombie – I’ve found his works considerably less than an amazing inversion of the genre. Just pretty fun adventure books.

    But on this one, I have to disagree. You’re either deliberately misreading the text or someone is providing you with a faulty reading. (You seem to have read great chunks off the text but claim not to have read them, so I’m a little unsure which is the case.)

    I should say, straight up, I’m not trained in any way in literary analysis so please do take this as me trying to discuss, not jump in and correct.

    At no point in time is the relationship between the new king and queen presented as anything less than an act of violation at worst, a terrible political necessity at best. The queen is forced by her father into a marriage that is vile to her. The King doesn’t want her. They both are victims of the political systems around them. (One clearly more victimised than the other, of course. But the King is trying to recreate himself as a better man, unaware of his crimes against his wife.)

    The Inquisitor chap is bowing to his own political masters and, as he does throughout the series, is trapped between his own duties and personal ethics. Bastard Gandalf comes off as more like secret Stalin by the end of the book, stomping on democratic movements and manipulating popular politics until it seems clear that the white ‘good guy’ nation comes off as a seriously unpleasant place to be unless you’re willing to cozy up to power at the expense of any personal morality.

    I think the Inquisitor has been misrepresented by his fans as some sort of secret nice guy/badass when instead he’s a ruthless bastard whose interesting to read about because of the lines he has to walk. And I suspect that many people romanticse the fairly bleak relationship he enters into at the end of the book.

    One of the major themes of the book, time and again, is a hegemonic society basically stomping on personal choice and happiness.

    I’m a nerdy white dude but I try to remotely sensible to other points of view. So I’m not going to argue that you’re wrong and you should appreciate the books. I myself enjoyed the books but maintain some distance from them because I wish he’d put his talents as a superior writer of page-turning yarns (and that’s all – he writes fun action books with a bit or ironic distance from his influences but he nevertheless still reproduces those narratives) to a setting that isn’t so po-faced bleak.

    My own cautious analysis is that I think a valid reading of all these relationships is that heteronormativity is punishing for everyone. Even the King, who is turned into a rapist against his will, against his knowledge. But most especially, for the Queen, who must endure that normativity if she wants to maintain her only chance for status. It’s never ever presented as anything less than an awful imposition of the political onto the personal.

    You don’t like the books, that’s cool and I’m not arguing that you should or that your reading is utterly without merit. I think you often make fine points – but I do think the books are at least a little more aware than you give them credit for.

    But I will tell you this, if I’m reading in the fantastic, I rarely find being lectured in ‘gritty realism’ by educated middle-class people enlightening. Because I might be entirely wrong and it might indeed just be an easy way to create more bastardry and, as you say, grimdark.

    • acrackedmoon

       /  December 10, 2011

      But on this one, I have to disagree. You’re either deliberately misreading the text or someone is providing you with a faulty reading. (You seem to have read great chunks off the text but claim not to have read them, so I’m a little unsure which is the case.)

      I’ve read the fucking books. Stop mansplaining.

      blah blah blah grimdark blah balh

      Yes, and it doesn’t read to me as anything more insightful or amazing than GRIMDARK, MAN, GRIMDARK YOU SUCK WE SUCK EVERYONE SUCKS but you don’t see straight men being raped, do you? Subversions (hahahahahaha) of Gandalf or whatever it is that you’d like to think Abercrombie does mean fuck-all when it’s delivered as little more than straight-up regurgitations of shit, indistinguishable from attitudes depicted in Gor. The “other” empire is still full of brown people vaguely inspired by Islam, in the nastiest way possible, and we are still getting strictly the POVs of white people. You’re making precisely the same arguments the Bakker fanboys did when they showed up here to defend his wonderful “feminism.”

      I’m a nerdy white dude but I try to remotely sensible to other points of view.

      Color me surprised. You’re coming off as a very mansplainy… well, nerdy white boy defending one of his toys. You may not think of yourself as an Abercrombie fan, you may profess not to particularly celebrate him, but you are still writing reams of apologia–yours is so far the longest comment here, do you notice?–for a narrative that in the name of GRITTY GRIMDARK is contributing to a societal narrative that does not affect, hurt, or remotely harm you in any way.

      And, you know, it’s not that if you like Abercrombie you’re a shitty person: it’s that you don’t have to leap forth to apologize for it and try to explain away all the narrative choices he made as the result of noble intentions. Which don’t matter, in any case; the author is dead.

      • bossbrett

         /  December 17, 2011

        The “other” empire is still full of brown people vaguely inspired by Islam, in the nastiest way possible, and we are still getting strictly the POVs of white people.

        That, and the view of a “brown” woman with a massive hate-on for the Gurkish Empire.

        You don’t think those two are linked? They’re all POVs from Aduan people who see the Gurkish as Scary Brown Religious Fanatics – which doesn’t make them right. In fact, considering that Abercrombie frequently uses the whole “turns out he/she was really an asshole from others’ POV” element a lot, I’d take their views of the Gurkish Empire with a massive grain of salt.

        You may not think of yourself as an Abercrombie fan, you may profess not to particularly celebrate him, but you are still writing reams of apologia–yours is so far the longest comment here, do you notice?–for a narrative that in the name of GRITTY GRIMDARK is contributing to a societal narrative that does not affect, hurt, or remotely harm you in any way.

        I’d like to see you provide any sort of proof that the portrayal of a despicable act by a despicable man in a midlist fantasy series is “contributing to a societal narrative” that says Rape/Etc is Okay. Portrayal is not the same as endorsement, and in Abercrombie’s case it’s not much of a portrayal (again, he’s a midlist author).

        • acrackedmoon

           /  December 17, 2011

          Oh hai, mansplaining fanboy fucknut. Banned. :’)

          And understand, you are not banned because you disagree with me: you are banned because, well, you are being a mansplaining fucknut–you feel entitled to at some length (you have posted four comments and I’m only letting the one through for a reason) to mansplain to me why it’s okay to include rape as part of a GRIMDARK MAN GRIMDARK agenda, disregarding any… well, anything really. I’m banning you for not getting it; I’m banning you because you are an unclever bore, and I’m banning you because it amuses me something fierce knowing that you will fume over it for days to come.

    • Whilst others have covered a lot of your post, I should probably also note that this…

      Glokta found that he was almost smiling as he watched the ugly scene. I may be crippled, and hideous, and in constant pain, but the humiliation of beautiful women is one pleasure I can still enjoy. I do it now with threats and violence, instead of with soft words and entreaties, but still. Almost as much fun as it ever was.

      … is not exactly the internal monologue of someone ‘trapped between his own duties and personal ethics’. It is also seriously ew, especially coming from a fan-favourite character, but I’ve been told that stating the blindingly obvious is a habit that I should really be getting out of.

  6. OK. I tried really, really hard not to be a mansplainer and I obviously failed. I know this isn’t the learning tree or anything. But how do I disagree or share a dissenting view, even enter into the conversation without coming off like that?

    Cos I really don’t want to be like one of those Bakker fans!

    • acrackedmoon

       /  December 10, 2011

      The problems I had with your response are something like this: you bring up the plight of poor, poor Glokta and the plight of poor, poor Jezel both being oppressed by the evil crapsack world and the evil asshole wizard. You know, both men. It interests me that in a discussion of almost any work, the men come first nine times out of ten. How they feel, why they do what they do, what motivates them. It’s like the Tyrion thing: I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone condemn him for being a rapist, everyone is too busy feeling sad for him because he’s a dwarf and his daddy is mean.

      The other thing is that you’re explaining things I already know and have already seen–as I’ve alluded to in the post–from discussions of Abercrombie: he’s writing GRIMDARK, MAN, GRIMDARK to portray how awful it is to live in such a world and how it makes everyone sad and bad and mean. This doesn’t elude me. But it’s still a deeply gross thing, because it plays on all the stereotypes of lesbians being defenseless in the face of men, of rape robbing women of power and agency, and of course the whole shriek/screech/shrill shit which rings the alarm bells like no tomorrow. It’s manipulative: Abercrombie makes sure you never… ever… give a shit about Terez. He wants you to bawwww over poor, poor Glokta with his poor, poor broken body. It’s effective too, as you’ve yourself proven. You are more interested in Glokta’s motivations and the crapsack GRIMDARK, MAN, GRIMDARK than you are in the implications of what Terez’s treatment entails. I mean just look at that bit where she has sex with Jezel. That’s a lot of details, don’t you think?

      So, I don’t know, don’t enter these discussions while going “but the men, what about the men!” Don’t throw around “deliberate misreading” or “someone is providing you with a faulty reading” (as though, were this the case, I can’t find out by myself whether it matches the actual text). It’s insulting, and while I’m very much into insulting Abercrombie and Bakker, I’m not doing so to have a discussion with them to begin with–do you see what I mean?

      Your reading of the Terez situation has an air of intellectual distance, so no doubt you want me to maintain the same distance. Except this too is a familiar tactic, and not something you should say because of course you can be detached about it. Lesbians being raped in fiction does zero, precisely zero, harm to you. An “other” empire full of brown people being faceless and menacing? Likewise. Finally, your first comment also read like a textbook case of this.

  7. @CaptainFalon IRONIC that you would say this, as Abercrombie is the man who wrote that he must, simply must, depict women as trod-upon because HISTORY SAYS SO. Never mind that numerous women throughout the shittiest periods of history have been cunning and sly and found ways to get a life that for all its flaws they have a measure of control over.

    I heard Catherynne Valente speak at a con recently (hi, Ms. Valente, if you’re reading :)) and she must have had Abercrombie or someone like him in mind when she went off on this trope and the fact that so many male authors of medieval fantasy just assume that women have been oppressed throughout history and therefore couldn’t possibly have any real power. I mean, just reading a little bit of history will tell you that it’s a little more complicated than that and even in the most patriarchal societies, it wasn’t freakin’ Gor, so one does wonder if it’s really an earnest dedication to verisimilitude that results in every female character being abused and oppressed in these books…

    • g2-22745856cc8b56416cc6c344655eb99f

       /  December 18, 2011

      Bakker, is that you posting under your sockpuppet namesake again? Wow, that’s crazy.

      • acrackedmoon

         /  December 18, 2011

        lolwut

        No.

        • g2-22745856cc8b56416cc6c344655eb99f

           /  December 18, 2011

          Dunno. It kinda fits the bill; his sockpuppet was Pierce Inveriarity, he was referencing the Pynchon novels (obviously) and he writes a lot like Bakker does, complete with ellipses.

          You’d know better than I, but it’d be funny. And Canadian ironic.

        • acrackedmoon

           /  December 18, 2011

          Nope, I know Inverarity. Bakker’s posted here before under his own name, but I kept it in moderation queue because it amused me.

        • Weird coincidence, though.

  8. Captain Falcon pretty much pointed out the fallacies within a fantasy regarding this scene. The princess has so little support because…? A missing countess generates no concern because…?

    He has some witty dialogue but the first trilogy and BSC had some weak plotting (as you mentioned, statue falling and supposedly intelligent protag not doing much with said INT score).

    I think Heroes, his last novel, shows some maturity in that it isn’t all about the grimdark…but then there is another woman left to be raped…which leads back to your point that it is easy to stick in a rape when you don’t have to worry about it happening to you.

    I do understand that one should not airbrush history and it can do a disservice to those who have suffered sexual assault in supposedly “cool” medieval times, but I’d be hard pressed to find a sword and sorcery novel that gave the victim much of a voice.

  9. Oh lord – I actually sort of blanked this when I read it, being more annoyed by the way the narrative failed to live up to its subversive/deconstructive premise. The thing is, I am kind of fond of Abercrombie. I mean I don’t think he’s the bees knees or anything, but I find him readable and, yeah, enjoyable. The man can write a decent action action sequence and a stylish sentence, and sometimes that’s enough.

    But his women are shit. Unremittingly shit. I hated Ardee West, and that whole “she wants it hard over a table oh yeah” arc, and Nine Finger’s demonic fuckbuddy and … there’s lol!rape in book 2 (i.e. rape that exists solely to motivate A Good Man Into Taking Action) so I suppose by the time I got to lesbian rape I’d given up caring.

    In Abercrombie’s defence – and this is stretching it, I know – at least his world is uniformly grim to everyone. Everybody gets tortured, everybody gets raped (although I get the feeling we’re probably meant to be slightly guiltily titillated by the rape). My problem with “ohmygod history so dark man” is that it usually means that women get raped while men get given soup by druids. I think the least you can say about Abercrombie is that everything is shit for everybody.

    • acrackedmoon

       /  December 11, 2011

      I also tuned it out when I first read the thing! It’s kind of worrying what you can get desensitized to. But I was in my “OH GOD PLEASE WHERE ARE MY LESBIANS” mood and read some redditor wanking to the awesomeness of Abercrombie and went looking for this scene in the epub and… yeah.

      Nine Finger’s demonic fuckbuddy

      THIS IS THE ONE PEOPLE CITE AS ABERCROMBIE’S STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER AHHHHHH (in the trilogy, anyway).

      • I’m curious what you’d think of the main female character in Heroes. Ferro was cardboard, but Finree I thought was well done.

        Mind you, there may be things my male gaze missed and, well, I’ve yet to finish the novel so there is that as well.

        • acrackedmoon

           /  December 12, 2011

          I haven’t read Heroes and… don’t really want to, to be honest. After Best Served Cold I decided I was so very done with Abercrombie.

  10. Isn’t the point of this scene to show (again) what a horrible, despicable, hateful person Glokta is?

  11. This was brought up on westeros starting here:

    http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/60038-although-i-hesitate-to-say-overrated-2011-releases-that-arent-years-best-quality-to-me/page__st__20__p__2856390#entry2856390

    Rereading parts of this I have a question about this:

    “I’ve no idea if he is straight but he’s very certainly a man, which makes this about a thousand times more repulsive and disgusting than the worst M/M rape fetishization can ever hope to be.”

    I feel like all rape fetishization is dangerous, isn’t it? What makes one worse?

    • acrackedmoon

       /  December 17, 2011

      It’s the power dynamics thing: yes, rape fetishization in any case is pretty terrible–but when it’s a story told by a man about the victimization of women, say, it’s more loaded because men are the ones with power, and women make up a greater portion of rape statistics and domestic abuse, etc. There’s also the argument (which I don’t personally find very persuasive, but despite my attitude toward M/M I’ve learned to be less judgey about how people deal with their sexuality) that the rape thing in M/M helps some women deal with ingrained misogyny, to transmit the role of victim to men: if in the real world the woman is the one who has to be anxious at a deserted parking lot at night, in M/M fantasy this is the case for men (or for men, too). Again, I’m not really into this, but there it goes.

      The Westeros forums are nice and predictable, by the way. “Crazy bitch”, lol.

      • Seeing a link to your blog in a place like Westeros makes me want to make some popcorn and sit back, watch the show. As I said to Larry after finding out he had linked you, “You introduced them to Requires Hate? Oh man, that should be fucking awesome.”

        I was wondering when the “crazy bitch” bullshit was going to start up. Focus a bit more on Martin and I expect they’ll have the pitchforks and torches out.

        • acrackedmoon

           /  December 17, 2011

          I’m waiting for “man-hating feminazi,” myself (already seen that elsewhere from Star Wars fanboys) and possibly implications that I’m–that deadliest of insults!–a lesbian.

        • g2-22745856cc8b56416cc6c344655eb99f

           /  December 18, 2011

          She had been introduced elsewhere, notably in the Bakker threads. Probably didn’t get the press that this did, though.

      • Clearly I don’t think either the transfer of victimization nor the fetishization of rape in M/M fiction is healthy or progressive, but it is definitely a different thing from the prolific refusal to grant a female character any agency over her own body/sexuality/life choices. Prolific as in EVERY SINGLE THING WRITTEN EVER (and I can say that with statistical truthiness, well within the 0.5%). If a woman gains personal growth by transferring the victimization of her life onto a male character…well, it’s kind of gross, but it’s definitely not equivalent to Abercrombie et al’s, as you say, GRIMDARK, MAN.

        I have my own campaign, for my own reasons, against the fetishization of homosexuality, both male (slash) and female (vis-porn), and I think it is truly a Bad Thing. But to lump that in the same category as the on-going reinforcement of rape culture and misogyny is to show a frightening lack of critical thinking and draw a dangerously false equivalence.

        Also, moar lesbians, plz.

      • Apologized in the other post, but again sorry. We started discussing your post, and once I realized I might disagree with a part of it I didn’t want to be criticizing behind someone’s back.

        With the usual “I’m straight” prefix to my opinion, my problem with m/m rape fetish is I know gay men who have been raped. I can’t help but feel it to be trivializing their experience.

  12. @saajanpatel: “my problem with m/m rape fetish is I know gay men who have been raped.”

    I do too, and I have problems with m/m tropes for that same reason. But I have to consider what impact m/m realistically has on my friends’ lives, and that impact is close to zero. It hasn’t entered mainstream culture, and it isn’t a part of the collective consciousness. I’m not saying that it shouldn’t be criticized, but its power over people in society isn’t as great as fictional portrayals of sexual violence against women.

    • I’ve had the experience and certainly don’t want to read about it in anything meant to be arousing. That said, the rape of gay men is something you almost never see portrayed, as a fetish or otherwise, unless you actually go looking for it. It doesn’t just pop up as a trope. 90% of the time, when a man is a rape victim in fiction, it’s a straight man and the perpetrator is either a gay man (serving as an embodiment for misogynist homophobes fears that gay men will treat them like they treat women) or a woman (usually defended as an inversion but actually used to demonize female agency and trivialize rape).

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